Giving and Receiving

13:12:19 raize: so, today's lesson is giving and receiving
13:12:44 raize: i posted the three verbs you need to know on the forums, but i'll say them again
13:12:53 raize: ageru, kureru, and morau. are you familiar with them?
13:14:16 milki: to give?
13:14:34 raize: two of them, yes
13:14:44 raize: ageru and kureru = to give
13:14:47 raize: morau = to receive
13:15:04 milki: yay
13:15:14 raize: so let's start with the one i consider easiest, morau
13:15:42 raize: although our vocabulary is giving and receiving, what we're also dealing with here is viewpoint
13:15:49 raize: and this shit is essential, my friends!
13:16:23 raize: so, morau requires a first person perspective
13:16:50 raize: can somebody conjugate morau into past tense?
13:16:55 Stmated: moratta
13:17:00 raize: great, and past polite?
13:17:10 Zhivago: moraimashita ?
13:17:13 raize: that's it, you're set.
13:17:32 raize: "ringo o moratta"
13:17:46 raize: received an apple
13:17:55 raize: now, i want you to make me a sentence, so throw out some of your examples
13:18:45 raize: of course you should all know if you have a question, ask it :)
13:19:02 Stmated: sono ringo ga yamashita-san kara moratta ?
13:19:29 raize: nice, but why ga?
13:19:49 Zhivago: pasupooto wa keisatsu ni itte moratta ?
13:19:50 GeKoDemo: watashi ga sensei no hon o moratta
13:20:18 Stmated: Isn't "ga" for further talking on the topic, and "wa" for a new subject or topic changing... stuff... but maybe "wo" fits better?
13:20:42 raize: o (を) is what you want because it's the direct object of morau. In other words, X を is the direct object being received.
13:20:42 milki: so complicated >.<
13:20:49 raize: okay, let's look at your three, they're great examples
13:21:21 GeKoDemo: "person doing the receiving/subject" ga "object" o moratta
13:21:34 raize: 1. sono ringo ga yamashita-san kara moratta -> yamashita-san ni sono ringo o moratta
13:21:48 raize: two things there - since ringo is the direct object of morau, we need a wo / o (を), also, kara is not wrong! but ni fits a little better though. we'll get to that
13:23:56 raize: 2. pasupooto wa keisatsu ni itte moratta -> pasupooto (passport) o keisatsu kara moratta
13:24:08 raize: i removed itte because we'll get to that later.
13:24:42 raize: again, pasupooto is the direct object being received, so we need a wo / o (を)
13:24:59 raize: but does anybody have an idea why kara and ni were reversed there?
13:25:01 Stmated: But isn't "ni" normally the other way? When giving...
13:25:10 Stmated: Right. Nope :)
13:25:32 raize: okay, let's put the lesson on hold for a sec.
13:25:39 raize: i want to stress this very very much
13:26:08 raize: に (ni) is NOT a replacement for prepositions or any other english bits of grammar
13:26:41 raize: the sooner you understand that, the easier it'll be to take in japanese :)
13:26:58 Zhivago: luckily I think this trough finnish :p
13:27:11 raize: we do translate it as to, from, in, etc.. but a translation is all it is.
13:27:34 raize: if that's clear, let's look at the kara (から)and ni (に)thing..
13:29:07 raize: In Stmated's example, kara works fine, but ni is a bit more natural. however, in zhivago's example, kara is ungrammatical
13:29:09 Stmated: Ahh, right :P
13:29:54 raize: the reason for this is probably because ni refers to more like direct contact with something specific while kara indicates a source from which something came.
13:31:06 raize: since the police aren't a specific person, it might be a bit odd to use ni (に)
13:31:26 raize: okay, and last example
13:31:41 raize: 3. watashi ga sensei no hon o moratta
13:31:59 raize: great, except i'd probably use wa (は)instead of ga (が)
13:32:17 raize: unless you were for some reason bringing up a new topic, or introducing something new into the conversation
13:32:41 raize: however given what you're saying, and the fact that it's you, everyone can see you, and you're using morau..
13:32:48 Zhivago: or stressing the point? like from THE teacher, and not from some shady guy :p
13:33:22 raize: you mean you received the book from the teacher?
13:33:34 GeKoDemo: no, teacher's book
13:33:42 Zhivago: ah :p
13:33:44 raize: right
13:33:54 raize: if you were talking about the teacher, you'd need more particles!
13:34:04 raize: and so we come to the grammar of the statement now
13:34:18 raize: A wa B ni X o morau
13:34:52 raize: so a full sentence using the teacher example and including getting it from the teacher would be:
13:35:08 raize: 私は先生に先生の本を貰った (watashi WA sensei NI sensei no hon WO moratta)
13:36:00 raize: i got the teacher's book from the teacher. so let's try.
13:36:50 raize: geko; kyou wa nani o moratta no
13:37:39 GeKoDemo: watashi wa sensei ni gakkou no hon o moratta
13:37:48 raize: nice, now ask somebody else.
13:38:08 GeKoDemo: ^^
13:38:52 GeKoDemo: juju-san, kinoo wa nani o moratta no ka?
13:38:35 milki: you dont need the ka at the end of the question?
13:38:58 Stmated: You can, but it's not needed if the particle implies it.
13:38:41 raize: ah, but it's there
13:38:54 milki: where?
13:38:58 raize: in informal speech, you can use "no" after the verb instead of "ka"
13:39:03 Stmated: like "no" or "ka"
13:39:20 Stmated: watashi wa sensei ni hepatitis B wo moratta
13:39:24 milki: o.O
13:39:24 raize: also, "no" sounds softer than ka, making it sound more casual and less in your face.
13:39:27 raize: haha
13:39:49 raize: stmated; great, now ask someone else.
13:40:00 raize: zhivago; senshuu nani o moratta no
13:40:50 Zhivago: senshuu wa sensei-tachi ni shukudai o moratta
13:40:58 raize: (also a note about no ka: it's very strong sounding, and also indicates that for some reason you don't understand or believe that what's being asked could possibly be. like, you have some doubt or mistrust.. anyway, be careful with it)
13:41:13 raize: ouch, lots of homework
13:41:13 Stmated: (milki): Kinou, sensei ni nan no senbyou wo moratta?
13:41:26 milki: senbyou wa nan desu ka?
13:41:33 Stmated: Senbyou wa STD. 13:41:38 milki: >.<
13:41:48 GeKoDemo: noka - that's from watching too much anime =p
13:41:53 Zhivago: STD wa nani ?
13:41:53 milki: Stmated wa hentai desu
13:41:59 Zhivago: ah
13:42:01 raize: haha
13:42:03 Zhivago: ...disease
13:42:14 raize: okay okay, i think we basically get it?
13:42:33 milki: hai
13:42:53 raize: so that's morau in a nutshell. remember it's usually used when referring to yourself.
13:43:00 raize: OR somebody you can really empathize with
13:43:08 Zhivago: can morau be used in non material things ?
13:43:13 raize: ah, good question
13:43:16 raize: yes it can, you can receive anything with it
13:43:23 Zhivago: like 'lesson' or 'love'
13:43:26 raize: sure.
13:43:27 Zhivago: ok, nice
13:43:50 raize: so we've got receive done
13:43:52 raize: next is give
13:43:58 raize: in english, give is pretty straightforward.
13:44:02 raize: he gave me a book
13:44:06 raize: i gave him a book
13:44:10 raize: she gave me an std
13:44:13 raize: i gave her an std
13:44:37 raize: in japanese, the idea of moving something from you to someone else is still present, but it all comes down to perspective
13:45:16 raize: watashi wa hanako ni hana o ageru
13:45:29 raize: can someone translate that for me?
13:46:01 Stmated: Who would ever want to give your nose to someone? What a weird way to show affection.
13:46:07 raize: haha
13:46:07 Zhivago: I'll give flower to hanako / I have habit of giving...
13:46:07 Stmated: (just kidding)
13:46:22 raize: i'll go with zhivago on this, and yes i was talking about the future so "i'll give hanako a flower"
13:46:41 raize: now check it out
13:47:05 raize: hanako wa watashi ni hana o ageta
13:47:21 raize: translation?
13:47:43 Stmated: Hanako gave me a flower ?
13:47:46 raize: right, so what's the problem with the sentence?
13:48:04 Zhivago: I wouldn't say that... because if someone ageru you, you raise yourself :p
13:48:16 Zhivago: wrong ?
13:48:30 raize: not exactly
13:48:33 Stmated: No problem, just thought it'd be some trick question ;P
13:48:42 raize: there is a problem
13:48:50 raize: at the beginning i mentioned viewpoint and perspective. this sentence is totally fucked because you have a perspective problem.
13:49:21 raize: ageru indicates giving from the giver's perspective, but when talking about yourself, you usually take your perspective.
13:50:00 raize: so you've got hanako as the giver, you as the givee, and ageru as a verb. it's mismatched.
13:50:18 raize: you're the speaker, and "ageru" is from hanako's perspective, but "watashi wa" is from your perspective so it causes a syntax error on line 1.
13:50:26 raize: hit to continue
13:50:42 GeKoDemo: ^^ syntax error, yep
13:51:02 raize: so what do we do? you want to tell somebody that "hanako" "flower" "to you"
13:51:10 raize: well, one way is to do it the way we did earlier
13:51:22 raize: watashi wa hanako ni hana o moratta
13:51:31 raize: i got a nose from hanako
13:51:33 Zhivago: wonders why 50% of people dabbling with japanese seem to be studying or have studied CS
13:51:39 Stmated: Hehe
13:51:41 raize: good with languages ;)
13:51:56 raize: OR, the other way to do it is to use that other lovely "give" verb, kureru
13:52:13 Stmated: kureta, Before you ask that question :P
13:52:31 Aekaede: it makes sense
13:52:34 raize: watashi wa hanako ni hana o moratta - i got flowers from hanako
13:52:40 raize: hanako wa watashi ni hana o kureta - hanako gave me flowers
13:52:50 raize: stmated; thanks :)
13:53:09 GeKoDemo: ageru & morau - the speaker is usually the subject
13:53:27 raize: no no
13:53:34 raize: ageru = the giver is the subject
13:53:43 raize: morau and kureru
13:53:57 raize: the first person/speaker is usually the subject, and the sentence is from the viewpoint of the speaker
13:54:08 raize: OR a person whom the speaker can empathize with
13:57:15 raize: therefore, "tanaka-san wa itoo-san ni itsumo okane o kureru" - "Mr. tanaka always gives mr. itoh money"is strange because we're talking about two people that are of about equal status that don't actually empathize with each other.
13:57:35 raize: you're just stating a fact about two dudes, so you'd need to show it from tanaka's point of view, meaning you have to go with ageru
13:58:07 raize: "tanaka-san wa itoo-san ni itsumo okane o ageru" would be okay
13:58:46 raize: but now if itoh was your buddy, or someone you kinda knew, and you sympathized with his situation, then you could go with kureru
13:58:59 GeKoDemo: ah... i see
13:59:10 GeKoDemo: that's rather complicated =p
13:59:16 raize: yes, it seems like it
13:59:17 Aekaede: sympathized ? are you sure that's the right word
13:59:23 raize: but it's really a perspective thing
13:59:29 raize: err, sorry no, *empathize 13:59:34 raize: thanks
13:59:43 raize: i can't even spell that word
14:00:00 raize: of course, sympathy would work too, though you'd probably use ukemi then..
14:00:04 Aekaede: i spell it 'empathise' :)
14:00:27 Aekaede: sympathy would work but it'll give ambiguity
14:00:30 raize: standard english probably does too
14:00:32 Aekaede: ya know kinda
14:00:40 raize: okay, anyway if this all makes sense!
14:01:05 raize: how about you work together and explain ageru and kureru here
14:01:14 raize: thoughts/explanations GO!
14:01:30 raize: (start with ageru)
14:03:56 raize: and silence fills the channel! :(
14:04:06 Zhivago: happens in irl too :p
14:04:07 raize: turn off your porn, young learners!
14:04:23 GeKoDemo: to give/ageru - the subject is the giver
14:04:27 raize: yes! let's call it -> the viewpoint is that of the giver
14:05:01 Zhivago: and with morau the viewpoint is that of the reciever :p
14:05:06 raize: that's correct
14:05:14 raize: and kureru?
14:05:44 Zhivago: neutral
14:06:15 GeKoDemo: to give: if the speaker is the receiver, or to indicate empathy for the person who is the receiver
14:06:19 raize: nope, again it's the receiver or somebody who you can empathize (empathise) with
14:06:26 raize: righto, geko gets a point!
14:06:36 GeKoDemo: =p
14:06:41 raize: so .. what's the difference between morau and kureru?
14:07:35 GeKoDemo: you can say watashi wa sensei ni hon o moratta, but you can't use kureta
14:07:38 Zhivago: recieving and being given something ?
14:07:57 raize: geko; but you can say sensei wa watashi ni hon o kureta
14:08:04 raize: so, this time zhivago gets a point! :D
14:08:09 Aekaede: what is the difference :S
14:08:16 raize: exactly what zhivago said. just as in english, the difference between morau - receive, and kureru somebody gave me
14:08:44 raize: err, somebody gave (me or empathized with person)
14:08:58 raize: using geko's example:
14:09:10 raize: watashi wa sensei ni hon o moratta - I received a book from the teacher
14:09:22 raize: sensei wa watashi ni hon o kureta - The teacher gave me a book
14:09:39 Aekaede: the same message is being given though :s
14:09:45 raize: indeed
14:10:03 raize: the fact is a book moved from sensei to you
14:12:04 raize: the difference is (as i know it) that you're placing emphasis on receiver versus the giver.
14:12:50 raize: and while it may not seem like much, it's a big difference when you're thanking somebody for something versus stating you got something
14:13:22 raize: anyway, i'll post more about that on the forum later and try to dig up something more concrete for us.
14:14:12 raize: morau -> receiver WA giver NI thing WO morau
14:14:34 raize: ageru -> giver WA receiver NI thing WO ageru
14:14:48 raize: kureru -> giver WA receiver NI thing WO kureru
14:15:09 raize: so grammar stays the same for giving, therefore you just have to focus on the viewpoint, and morau is just reversed.
14:15:34 raize: if that's okay, i'll move onto the last two bits and we'll finish this up
14:16:23 GeKoDemo: sure =p
14:16:34 abcdxyz: what's the last two bits?
14:16:37 raize: okay
14:17:15 raize: the first is that as zhivago said, and stmated exampled, it's totally possible to give more than just physical objects. teaching, lessons, love, money, disease, etc.
14:17:24 raize: so they aren't limited to physical things
14:17:53 raize: the second is that of course it goes without saying you can give actions and receive them
14:18:03 abcdxyz: yea but action is the -te form
14:18:10 raize: pin-pon
14:18:35 raize: to give and receive actions, use the -te form of the action you wish to describe giving or receiving and add your give/receive verb at the end
14:18:43 raize: for example hon o katte moratta
14:19:01 raize: oshietekureta
14:19:22 raize: yatteageru
14:19:45 raize: chaining things together like that is not only fun but useful too!
14:19:56 Zhivago: about book bying recived = I bought a book ?
14:20:17 raize: "bought and received"
14:20:39 raize: tomodachi ni hon o kattemoratta
14:20:52 raize: friend book buying received!
14:21:12 raize: or..[my] friend bought [me] a book
14:22:19 raize: and the best example i can think of is oshietekuretearigatougozaimasu!
14:22:43 abcdxyz: thank you for teaching me
14:22:49 raize: right
14:23:29 raize: and we're using kureru to place emphasis on the act of giving, which in turn focuses things on the giver, and humbles things up for you.
14:23:24 Aekaede: It looks so ugly when you don't put spaces between T_T
14:23:47 raize: aekaede; i'll go one step further and say it looks so ugly in ro-maji.
14:24:03 raize: 教えてくれてありがとうございます
14:24:08 raize: yummy.
14:24:10 Aekaede: hah
14:24:13 raize: okay, we're done. See you next time.